In God We Trust Poster Project Comments

If you want to stir a hornets nest, just bring up God in public

Here's a collection of emails I've received since the Tribune article ran. My replies are in blue and I'm not repeating similar emails I've received and where I've responded to them they're similar to the responses below.

You are a moron. The Constitution specifically forbids this.

Phil

Can you please show me where the constitution forbids anyone from being a moron?

Oak

Kramer sez: Happy Thanksgiving N******! Why do you hate America?

Greg

I admire many qualities and ideas of our founding, however, I can't help but recognize that great thinkers of other eras such as Socrates and Plato likely waxed poetic about the benefits of worshiping pagan gods. While I may respect their intellectual, political and philosophical endeavors, I hardly find their intellectual reputations grounds to endorse their religious beliefs. You, however, do not seemed to be hamstrung be the same kind of restraint in regard to the most respectable founding fathers of your great nation.

David

Keep religion separate from education and government.

Gregor

You're a d***@**

Separation of Church and State. Not such a difficult concept, is it? Not so hard to understand that this is what the Founders of our country wanted..desired..planned for? Religion has no place in matters of State..just as matters of State have no place in religion. And, which religion? I have no doubt but that you are strong in your beliefs, but there are near 4000 different religions/branches/schisms/sects across the globe.. What makes you think that *your* choice in belief is better than any of the other 3999+..? The odds are very heavily against you. Keep religion in your church..in any place of worship..it does NOT belong in our schools, our economy or our politics. Faith in fiction is no way to govern a people...

Tahl

Separation of church and state, easy concept.  Don't let the state establish a church as the state religion like the Church of England was.  It comes out of a letter Jefferson wrote assuring his Baptist friend that wouldn't happen.  Read Amendment one...no establishment.

Further, "In God We Trust" doesn't set up a religion.  It's a statement that all Muslims, Jews, and Christians happen to believe.  *MY* religion isn't promoted in saying it.  If you want something to chew on, try these quotes from some of our founders and see if you'd be partial to promoting them.

Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited....  What a utopia, what a paradise would this region be." - John Adams
"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.  It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
"Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson
"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty.  A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." - Thomas Jefferson

Oak

Treaty of Tripoli, June 7, 1797 Art. 11. [As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion]; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Ida

Thanks Ida, you're one of three people that has referred to this Treaty.  Although I admit I know nothing of the treaty and the background (which will now cause me to look it up), as with many of the other emails I've received, it doesn't show the complete picture.  It's taking one instance in isolation of all others.  To say this clearly indicates the sentiments of our founding fathers is quite incorrect.  When did the founding fathers get together and all endorse this treaty as they did when they wrestled over the constitution?

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited....  What a utopia, what a paradise would this region be." - John Adams
"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.  It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
"Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson
"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty.  A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." - Thomas Jefferson
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles...to this we owe our free constitutions of government." - Noah Webster

You'll have to reconcile these statements with the one at Tripoli, and there are plenty of such statements from our founding fathers.  We have to get everything in context.

Oak

I am disgusted with your persistance of religion in the school system. Children do not need religion to learn. There is plenty of time before and after school, as well as weekends, for that. Your claims for this is borderline fundamentalist! As a Iraqi war veteran who has served two tours I have seen what religious fundamentalism has done on both fronts. You and people like you have created an 'us' vs 'them' mentality.

John Doe

For starters before you try and "educate" all children in public, taxpayer funded, schools I suggest you spend a little time studying history.  The motto "In God We Trust" was established back in 1865 after the civil war.  In 1954 idiots like McCarthy screamed about the red menace and pushed to get "under god" in the pledge.  It never made sense and still doesn't.  

I find you sir and your kind more scary and dangerous to the United States and our Constitutional freedoms than any terrorist.

Tom

Hi Tom,

    Thanks for writing.  If you read this page you'll see that "In God We Trust" was used in the 1800's as you mention, but it wasn't made our national motto until 1956.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

    I have added this link to the site for clarification though.

    I would also enjoy having you explain to me how putting an "In God We Trust" poster in every classroom is more dangerous than a nuclear or biological terrorist attack.

Oak

Tom

Are you suggesting that to a Muslim, Allah isn't God and they shouldn't trust in him?  The posters don't say "In Jesus Christ we trust," they say God, which not only is it our national motto, it's also pretty generic.  You don't have to be LDS, Catholic, or anything but an athiest or agnostic to take it "your way".

Oak

Your poster campaign is just a symptom of an agenda that goes against everything the First Amendment stands for. I ask you to read it very slowly several times and try to understand what the founders were afraid of so much that they put it in the 1st Amendment ahead of Right to bear arms.  My kids went to Catholic school where I expected religion to be part of the curriculum.  Other than studying a comparative religion class, which I think would be good, all this God stuff is out of bounds in the public school setting.

Tom

Did you know that Jefferson wanted the Bible taught to public school students?  Not specific doctrine for XYZ church, but the core beliefs and morals that come from reading the Bible.  Would you be in favor of that?  I'm guessing not.  Our Founders put the first amendment in so there could be no "state" church established...no more Church of England that told people what to believe.  Everyone has the right to believe as they choose and may worship God in the manner they desire. 

Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Will you please tell me how these posters would go against the first amendment?  You might also elaborate on how my poster campaign is a symptom and what the agenda is that you think I'm part of.  To me I'm helping people recognize two things.  First, that God is a part of our lives and He should be the source of our trust.  Second, that we are a republic of laws and not a democracy of the majority.

Oak

Try to grasp the difference between faith and religion.  Faith is an individual possession should be practiced in one's own heart and mind.  Religion is nothing more than mob or gang mentality. Just think of the question: What religion do you belong to, and, What gang do you belong to?  My religion is true and your's is scum.  Now that's what I call Christian.

Tom

Faith isn't practiced in the heart and mind, it starts there but it's practiced in your life.  Application of faith to life is what becomes meaningful.

Oak

By trying to shove the God concept down everybody's throat with taxpayers dollars you are using government to establish religion.  If you say God is not religion then you are saying what....God is food group?  If you want to quote founders try this on for size.

Thomas Jefferson was openly hostile (if somewhat indelicate) on the question: "I do not find in Christianity one redeeming feature." Furthermore, he said: "The Christian god is cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust."  He also expressed his belief that "religions are all alike---founded on fables and mythologies".

The philosopher Seneca may have come closest to truth.  He observed, "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by rulers as useful."

Do you see any of the above mentioned classes that resembles today's society? 

Tom

First, no taxpayer dollars are being spent on these posters.  The posters are donated to teachers and it's totally up to them if they want to hang the posters in their classroom.

Second, by using Seneca's quote you seem to be openly hostile toward anyone who believes in the Bible by indicting them as "common" and "unwise".  I'm curious to know of your motivation for putting your children in Catholic school.

Third, if you're going to start tossing out Jefferson quotes, you're really going to dig yourself into a hole if you don't look at a broader perspective of the man.  All the Founding Fathers were God-fearing men.  Some believed a certain "religion" and they were all *wise*.  That Jefferson said what you quote below is no more surprising to me than this quote by him:

"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty.  A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." --Jefferson

and

 "Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" --Jefferson

How would you reconcile those statements with yours and would you advocate teaching the Bible in schools to make youth better citizens?

What *men* have done in the name of Christianity doesn't condemn Christianity, it condemns men.

Oak

Hey Oak,

This has been an amusing little exercise and I enjoy debate. 

Do you want to talk about Jefferson and his hypocrisy and lechery when it came to his slaves and Sally Hemmings in particular?

Point is all men are flawed and our founders while men of great courage, vision, wisdom, and idealism, they were men.  If Jefferson were running for office today he probably would be called a flip-flopper......."Hey Tom.....you said all men were created equal, what about your slaves?"  "Hey Mitt.....I thought you were pro-gay rights, pro-stem cell research, Pro-choice, anti-gun".  Let the games begin.

We can also debate the fact that there is no reference to God or Christian nation in the Constitution and no, the reference to lord in the date does not count.

God is the creation of man and like all things created by man it can be used for good or evil.  If on the other hand man is the creation of God why does he/she continue to make so many dysfunctional models?  I speak as a shinning example! 

As I have always said; when I debate someone, one of three things will happen. One, I will open their eyes to a point of view they have not considered and change their mind.  Two, they will give me a perspective I had not considered and change my mind. Third, we will agree to disagree but both are richer for the experience.

Cheers,

Tom

Tom,

I'm sure you've read the Declaration of Independence before but perhaps you've forgotten the lines about "Nature's God" and "endowed by their Creator" and "for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

On Thomas Jefferson, you act like there's definitive agreement about that but there is not.  That children of descendents have similar DNA means the possibility exists but is not conclusive.  If you know Thomas' life story, it really makes the case that he did not have a relationship with any of his slaves considering the love story between him and his wife.  Here's a statement from the Jefferson Memorial Foundation in regard to the DNA testing:

"Although the relationship between Jefferson and Sally Hemings has been for many years, and will surely continue to be, a subject of intense interest to historians and the public, the evidence is not definitive, and the complete story may never be known. The Foundation encourages our visitors and patrons, based on what evidence does exist, to make up their own minds as to the true nature of the relationship."

Honestly, it is irrelevant to the works that he produced in the founding of our country and people who seek to tear down the founders as immoral men are in my opinion, nothing more than the worst sort of gossipers who flourish on destruction and rumor.

On God and man, man is the creation of God, and like all things God created, we have been endowed with agency to choose how to live, for good or evil.  Can you imagine a God that every time some bad thing was about to happen would suddenly ZAP the wrongdoer to protect the innocent?  Starvation in a third world country?  Why doesn't he just rain manna on them so the rest of the world can relax and not have any godly compassion for those people and make the effort to help them.  I can't imagine a God like that, nor could I worship a being who forced his creations to live as he chose them to do.  We're not toy soldiers in a playset.  We're children of an immortal with divine seeds within us.  We're here to learn to live like God, and as history well documents, not everyone is capable or desirous of doing such a thing.  Does that condemn them?  No, and if you've ever sought to understand the LDS religion around you, you would know we believe in more than one "degree" of heaven and that even the worst humanity has offered up in history may not be relinquished to an unending hell.  I am LDS, and frankly, that's a comforting doctrine (that I'm not shoving down anyone's throat) which teaches you can really mess up bad and still enjoy a measure of peace in the next life after paying whatever price God has set for a person's actions.

Sincerely,

Oak

Oak,

You failed to respond to Jefferson's duality on slavery.  "All men created equal"?  Do you really believe that the Jefferson Memorial Society has no vested interest in trying to negate the Sally Hemmings story?   My admiration and reverence for the founders does not blind me from seeing them as men with failures and flaws. 

The meaning of the words in the Declaration must be looked at in context and can be subject to interpretation.  The mention of being "endowed by their Creator" seems odd. Could it be that he didn't say "The Creator" because he didn't want to be too specific?

It makes for interesting discussion.  As far as what you believe, if it works for you great.  I find all organized religion to be a sham created by men as a tool to control others.  Then there is the sex issue.  Why are women not equal to men in religion?  God's plan?  The 10 commandments seem rather sexist to me in that regard.  Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.........but it is O. K. to covet thy neighbors hubby?  Hmmmm  sounds like some dude wrote these too.

Something else I have never been to wrap my head around.  Why does God need money?  If all of that cash was used to feed the hungry, house the homeless and care for the elderly and ill, great.  Truth is organized religion seems more like communism orchestrated by self-styled benevolent dictators.  I could be wrong of course, but I am older than you and have been following this for a lot longer.  One more question, why is it necessary for a church to own secular businesses?  What do all these holdings have to do with salvation if that is the sole goal of a church?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Tom

Yes and you've failed to respond to how I'm worse than a terrorist.

Oak

You first.....answer my questions

Tom

Your willingness to indoctrinate children into religion is utterly pathetic. The schools are a government institution and should be completely neutral on the issue of religion- neither for nor against. There has never been any valid proof or evidence for the existence of any sort of "God", let alone the Christian one. Schools are for teaching facts, not mere conjectures from over 2000 years ago for which no actual evidence exists. Placing that mentality in a neutral institution of learning is contrary to education, and clearly subverts the separation of Church and State that the founding fathers of this nation intended. In 1797, John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli, which was ratified *unanimously* by the Senate of the United States; it included the phrase "the government of the United States of America is in no way founded on the Christian faith". The national motto was not changed to "in God we trust" until 1956, and is a clear violation of the First Amendment. Unless you would be willing to give equal time to all religious views as well as those of atheists and agnostics (who make up 10 to 15 percent of the population of the United States- and the number has been increasing) there should be no mention of religion whatsoever in the schools. Perhaps alongside the Christian dogma you plan to plaster over the walls of classrooms across the country, you should also plaster the Five Pillars of Islam, the Eightfold Path of Buddhism, and a message that describes the evil perpetrated in the name of religion like "Religion is the opiate of the masses" or "The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad".

Josh

Is that the same John Adams that made these statements?

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited....  What a utopia, what a paradise would this region be." - John Adams

and

"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.  It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Oak

> Is that the same John Adams that made these statements?
>
> "Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for
> their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by
> the precepts there exhibited.... What a utopia, what a paradise would
> this region be." - John Adams

A paradise, indeed; where married women are put to death if they are raped and nobody hears them scream (Deuteronomy 22:22-24); where women who are virgins and are raped are required to marry the man who raped her and shall have no possibility of divorce (Deut. 22:28-29); where shrimp and other seafood are considered abominations (Lev. 11:9-12), and so forth?
Paradise indeed.

But a hypothetical comment about a paradise is far different than his attitude towards the reality of the American government, one that was shared *unanimously* by the Senators of the era.

>
> and
>
> "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It
> is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
>
> Oak
>

The morality and religion of the people do not require the government to be religious. Indeed, for the people to be free to determine their own religion and morality, the government must not impose any religion or morality on them.

Adams signed a treaty indicating that the *government* was not religious. The fact that he says the *population* is religious and moral does not contradict this in any way.

I ask you, why do you insist on indoctrinating children with belief in god; rather than letting them make their own decisions?

Josh

>>A paradise, indeed; where married women are put to death if they are raped and nobody hears them scream (Deuteronomy 22:22-24); where women who are virgins and are raped are required to marry the man who raped her and shall have no possibility of divorce (Deut. 22:28-29); where shrimp and other seafood are considered abominations (Lev. 11:9-12), and so forth?
Paradise indeed.

That would be called fornication when nobody hears you scream because you're a partaker of it. You also left out the part that the man may never divorce the woman once they're married and he's paid a hefty fine for the act. Can I explain all this with perfect clarity to your satisfaction? I doubt it. You're dealing with an ancient civilization which had customs that under their set of circumstances these probably made more sense then than they do now, except to say that it's still against God's laws to have sexual immorality. The people anciently did eat fish (seafood), but certain types were restricted as were certain other foods because of preservation techniques or other health issues they dealt with back then. Today, and I'm not sure if you live in Utah or somewhere else, the LDS church shuns coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol, and other harmful substances and has for over 150 years. It's a health code that was given by God to a latter-day prophet which has produced an average life span of the LDS population several years longer than their peers.

That John Adams called paradise a people that would live the Biblical teachings isn't surprising especially when taken in light of the New Testament law.

>>But a hypothetical comment about a paradise is far different than his attitude towards the reality of the American government, one that was shared *unanimously* by the Senators of the era.

What *unanimous* belief are you referring to? That God had guided their hands in the creation of our country? That was certainly one they shared. Re-read the Declaration of Independence.

>>The morality and religion of the people do not require the government to be religious. Indeed, for the people to be free to determine their own religion and morality, the government must not impose any religion or morality on them.

Exactly the point. The 1st amendment guarantees there will be no state established religion like the Church of England was.

>>Adams signed a treaty indicating that the *government* was not religious. The fact that he says the *population* is religious and moral does not contradict this in any way.

Right again, the government isn't religious. It was founded by religious people who shared a common belief in God. Our national motto reflects this belief in God without specifying a certain religion to believe in. The establishment clause remains intact.

>>I ask you, why do you insist on indoctrinating children with belief in god; rather than letting them make their own decisions?

Why do you think Jefferson wanted the Bible taught in public schools?
"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty. A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." - Thomas Jefferson

Oak

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